“REDD herring”, very clever! But let’s not overlook the herrings hiding in the Professor’s comments.
The use of the energy slaves found (for free) in fossil fuels fueled the entirety of civilization and its expansion to massive numbers unsustainable under natural survival conditions. It powers industrial agriculture needed to feed this massive population, it powers the industrial chemical industry which makes your synthetic fabrics to clothe this massive population (we can’t raise that many sheep for wool or pick that much cotton), it powers all the travel (mostly needless) which this capitalist society seems to require and many other aspects of this culture which has used every possible tool for warding off the usual existential threats to their City-based existence.
You can NOT blame it all on the fossil-fuel industry - it is YOUR hand on the pump, not theirs. Professor Moore mentions an economy of “restraint and renewal.” Yes, we need to “live quietly” as per James Rebanks’ book _The Shepherd’s Life_, in other words, use MUCH LESS energy and get back to use of renewable (solar) energy. But that isn’t what you presently know as an “economy”: the economy is a measure of everyone’s activity and obviously we need MUCH LESS of such activity to reach “restraint.” All of society has lived beyond their means, as per the fuel consumption, the energy use, the environmental impact, as well as financial debt, always kicking the can down the road, putting the pain on to future generations.
As for the South Africa power outages, I would imagine they have plenty of power for an appropriate population level which is at least attempting to live in harmony with this planet. Could you tell me how city traffic is what this planet looks like? A key to living in harmony with this planet is finally beginning to set Limits to Progress.
Kathleen McCroskey, the Republic of South Africa is the most industrialized country on the African continent. 85% of its electricity generation comes from coal fired power plants that were developed mainly during the apartheid-era. That's the energy they have in abundance, so that's what they used and still use. Keep in mind that South Africa provides electricity to five neighboring countries and it powers about a quarter of the continent. Now that coal has been deemed 'evil' all Africans in that region will be affected because they now are forced to move to (so-called) 'renewables', but installing solar panels on rooftops is simply financially out of the question for the vast majority of people in the region, meaning that the upper-middle classes will be fine, but the poor will suffer, because energy produced by coal is very cheap in comparison. What's even worse is a lot of people burn coal directly in their homes our outside for cooking, which is very damaging to their lungs and all the burning of coal adds to the overall pollution problems.
BTW - coal is used in the production of solar panels, so it's not clean. Moreover it has to be 'renewed' (replaced) every 20 years, so more coal (and other raw materials) has to be used to produce it. The law of unintended consequences at work, but unfortunately the 'green' transition has become like a religion in rich nations and they are imposing it on less developed nations that can barely keep the lights on as it is.
Thank you for the comment! My proposal for oxygen pricing would initiate a major flux of funds from the rich nations to the rest of the world, many times what has been "promised" in mitigation commitments but never delivered. South Africa is an excellent example of why this funding is needed - these countries followed the leaders of economic development, now these economic leaders (rich countries) need to do the right thing and help the countries of the global South find a way to sustainable energy (eco-justice). All countries chasing the "American Dream" was an error.
Thank you for your reply Kathleen. I appreciate where you are coming from and it does make sense from a certain perspective - and to an extent I also used to think that could be a solution - but I just spent 3 years living in the region since 2020 and I'm not so sure about funding. The main problem is corruption. The extent of the problem can only really be understood when one lives there. The depth of corruption means that the funds would (1) only partially go to the projects (2) projects would be delayed or not completed and would end up costing more, (3) the funds would not be paid back because funding from the East and also the West come in the form of loans (they are not hand-outs), so the result is (4) that infrastructure and other assets in the country then end up having to be used to repay the loans.
For example, one of the reasons why there's such a major electricity crisis in S.A. is because the newest two coal fired plants suffered from points 1 and 2 above. My personal view is that in the case of S.A. specifically they need to just revert back to what they already have and fix the problems as best as they can without chasing after 'green' solutions promoted from abroad, but they have already signed up for a 'Just Transition' ... The situation there is truly dire and much of it is of their own making, but the pressure that's put on them to transition to 'renewables' asap is making everything worse. Thanks for the discussion!
Thank you for some excellent points, esp about corruption, that is a world-wide issue when any stream of money is passing by, many people feel that nobody will notice a bit is missing. You are correct about loans; a primary basis for massive environmental degradation in the global South is international debt which just keeps piling up. However, funds from oxygen pricing in the North would be real money not loans, which could pay for adaptation (making use of renewable energy) and mitigation as well as paying counties with forests for producing oxygen. A transition to incoming solar energy (note that the most efficient solar panels are very simply and produce hot water) must not be at the expense of the environment (more sacrifice zones) or displacement of populations. Note that the output of a nuclear power plant is also hot water, not electricity.
South Africa right now is experiencing 8 hours to 12 hours of power outages every day partially due to the demand for them to decommission their coal power stations as they can't get the financing anymore for the maintenance. Last year the country had more than 200 days of power cuts. I wonder if Kathleen Dean Moore would like to live without electricity for 12 hours a day?
“REDD herring”, very clever! But let’s not overlook the herrings hiding in the Professor’s comments.
The use of the energy slaves found (for free) in fossil fuels fueled the entirety of civilization and its expansion to massive numbers unsustainable under natural survival conditions. It powers industrial agriculture needed to feed this massive population, it powers the industrial chemical industry which makes your synthetic fabrics to clothe this massive population (we can’t raise that many sheep for wool or pick that much cotton), it powers all the travel (mostly needless) which this capitalist society seems to require and many other aspects of this culture which has used every possible tool for warding off the usual existential threats to their City-based existence.
You can NOT blame it all on the fossil-fuel industry - it is YOUR hand on the pump, not theirs. Professor Moore mentions an economy of “restraint and renewal.” Yes, we need to “live quietly” as per James Rebanks’ book _The Shepherd’s Life_, in other words, use MUCH LESS energy and get back to use of renewable (solar) energy. But that isn’t what you presently know as an “economy”: the economy is a measure of everyone’s activity and obviously we need MUCH LESS of such activity to reach “restraint.” All of society has lived beyond their means, as per the fuel consumption, the energy use, the environmental impact, as well as financial debt, always kicking the can down the road, putting the pain on to future generations.
As for the South Africa power outages, I would imagine they have plenty of power for an appropriate population level which is at least attempting to live in harmony with this planet. Could you tell me how city traffic is what this planet looks like? A key to living in harmony with this planet is finally beginning to set Limits to Progress.
https://kathleenmccroskey.substack.com/p/limits-to-progress
Kathleen McCroskey, the Republic of South Africa is the most industrialized country on the African continent. 85% of its electricity generation comes from coal fired power plants that were developed mainly during the apartheid-era. That's the energy they have in abundance, so that's what they used and still use. Keep in mind that South Africa provides electricity to five neighboring countries and it powers about a quarter of the continent. Now that coal has been deemed 'evil' all Africans in that region will be affected because they now are forced to move to (so-called) 'renewables', but installing solar panels on rooftops is simply financially out of the question for the vast majority of people in the region, meaning that the upper-middle classes will be fine, but the poor will suffer, because energy produced by coal is very cheap in comparison. What's even worse is a lot of people burn coal directly in their homes our outside for cooking, which is very damaging to their lungs and all the burning of coal adds to the overall pollution problems.
BTW - coal is used in the production of solar panels, so it's not clean. Moreover it has to be 'renewed' (replaced) every 20 years, so more coal (and other raw materials) has to be used to produce it. The law of unintended consequences at work, but unfortunately the 'green' transition has become like a religion in rich nations and they are imposing it on less developed nations that can barely keep the lights on as it is.
Thank you for the comment! My proposal for oxygen pricing would initiate a major flux of funds from the rich nations to the rest of the world, many times what has been "promised" in mitigation commitments but never delivered. South Africa is an excellent example of why this funding is needed - these countries followed the leaders of economic development, now these economic leaders (rich countries) need to do the right thing and help the countries of the global South find a way to sustainable energy (eco-justice). All countries chasing the "American Dream" was an error.
Thank you for your reply Kathleen. I appreciate where you are coming from and it does make sense from a certain perspective - and to an extent I also used to think that could be a solution - but I just spent 3 years living in the region since 2020 and I'm not so sure about funding. The main problem is corruption. The extent of the problem can only really be understood when one lives there. The depth of corruption means that the funds would (1) only partially go to the projects (2) projects would be delayed or not completed and would end up costing more, (3) the funds would not be paid back because funding from the East and also the West come in the form of loans (they are not hand-outs), so the result is (4) that infrastructure and other assets in the country then end up having to be used to repay the loans.
For example, one of the reasons why there's such a major electricity crisis in S.A. is because the newest two coal fired plants suffered from points 1 and 2 above. My personal view is that in the case of S.A. specifically they need to just revert back to what they already have and fix the problems as best as they can without chasing after 'green' solutions promoted from abroad, but they have already signed up for a 'Just Transition' ... The situation there is truly dire and much of it is of their own making, but the pressure that's put on them to transition to 'renewables' asap is making everything worse. Thanks for the discussion!
Thank you for some excellent points, esp about corruption, that is a world-wide issue when any stream of money is passing by, many people feel that nobody will notice a bit is missing. You are correct about loans; a primary basis for massive environmental degradation in the global South is international debt which just keeps piling up. However, funds from oxygen pricing in the North would be real money not loans, which could pay for adaptation (making use of renewable energy) and mitigation as well as paying counties with forests for producing oxygen. A transition to incoming solar energy (note that the most efficient solar panels are very simply and produce hot water) must not be at the expense of the environment (more sacrifice zones) or displacement of populations. Note that the output of a nuclear power plant is also hot water, not electricity.
South Africa right now is experiencing 8 hours to 12 hours of power outages every day partially due to the demand for them to decommission their coal power stations as they can't get the financing anymore for the maintenance. Last year the country had more than 200 days of power cuts. I wonder if Kathleen Dean Moore would like to live without electricity for 12 hours a day?